Should "god" be taken out of our nations sayings?

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pinksparklies		#121	[-]
Posts: 112 (05/24/2009 10:56 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	rokhas1yummybumbum wrote: Semirhage626 wrote: Dylishis wrote: For the people who don't believe, yes they are just empty words, but religion in this country is still affecting them because of the people who continue to try to legislate and make laws based on those religious beliefs i.e. dumbfuck Bush etc. That's why they care. Oh, absolutely but I think it's misguided attentions look to things like money and the Pledge of Allegiance to make an argument about basic human rights. I know that many Christians are very firm in their beliefs and they may try to force that on the whole in situations that they have no right to do so but taking God out of our documents and money isn't going to change those rabid Bible thumpers' stance on anything (politicians and otherwise). I think focusing on those areas that need fixing and working harder to force fair legislation on more important things is a better idea than erasing the word God from dollar bills and national oaths. If God is gone, are these people suddenly going to hop the fence and believe what those the non-believers do? Of course not. No, it's just a simple change and it won't make things better overnight. But on the other hand, it IS just a small thing, and so it should be something we can manage to change, because it is just words, and words are easier to change than attitudes. And there is no good reason to have government documents and currency that intentionally sets out to alienate a large group of people -- and that is exactly what the inclusion of Under God in the pledge set out to do when it was added in the 50's. Every American should be able to say the Pledge without being reminded that they're in a religious minority. Do you feel alienated? Do you feel guilty? I don't know why, if you were comfortable in your disbelief in God, you'd care at all. My dad is an atheist and he doesn't feel alienated. I don't feel alienated but I feel like it's disrespectful to our nation's citizens who don't believe in God. We have religious freedom sure, but it's like "You can believe in whatever you want...just know that Christians actually matter." I think it's just completely unneeded.
Dylishis		#122	[-]
Posts: 9548 (05/24/2009 10:59 PM) Most Outspoken '08 JJBer of the Year '09 Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	They kept their religion out of the politics and in return were able to build a great nation. Let's not get into what this nation was founded on. If we're really gonna go THERE... surely we'd have to amend more than the use of God in documents. If we're gonna go through damn near everything that poses offense to any that might be alienated or might have been alienated in some form or fashion... after we omit God, we're gonna have to burn down the nation and start from scratch. You want to talk about the "founding fathers knew what the fuck was up"...let's do things the way they did and see how many people have something to say about it.
IMJinnie		#123	[-]
Posts: 385 (05/24/2009 11:15 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	pinksparklies wrote: Semirhage626 wrote: Dylishis wrote: No, it's just a simple change and it won't make things better overnight. But on the other hand, it IS just a small thing, and so it should be something we can manage to change, because it is just words, and words are easier to change than attitudes. And there is no good reason to have government documents and currency that intentionally sets out to alienate a large group of people -- and that is exactly what the inclusion of Under God in the pledge set out to do when it was added in the 50's. Every American should be able to say the Pledge without being reminded that they're in a religious minority. How often do you say The Pledge though? . Quite often. I say it every time I attend a college sporting event, so at least 9-12 times per year. But how often I say the pledge isn't really the point. It's a Pledge to OUR nation. A nation that is supposed to respect private individual worship and freedom from religion. I should be able to pledge allegeience to my nation without using the phrase "Under God" (and for the record I do, I omit the words), but I can't believe anyone argues against removing it -- WHY? Why is it so important to you that it stay when you KNOW it alienates others & was intended to divide? Why would Christians allow their religion to be used like a manipulative tool, and fight for it to continued to be used in that way? THIS. THIS. THIS. OMG THIS! Just a question. Do you celebrate Christmas? How about Easter?
MissyJG		#124	[-]
Posts: 2553 (05/24/2009 11:23 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	I'm an atheist, therefore, I prefer no 'god'. But I don't mind. For a religious country like the US I think it's impossible to even imply there's no god. The majority is Christian and it's basically a tradition. It's the way it is. Not a big deal to me though.
britalicious		#125	[-]
Posts: 1337 (05/24/2009 11:26 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	yes, it should. having one group's version of hegemony enshrined in our national sayings is unfair.
Lo Timbalake		#126	[-]
Posts: 9862 (05/24/2009 11:30 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	Yes. First of all, our nation was NOT strictly founded on Christian beliefs the way some people want to pretend. Second, it completely disrespects actual values of our nation in terms of freedom of religion. The argument that if you don't believe in it, it shouldn't matter is crap. I don't believe in the Christian god, and I am deeply offended when people say I should say the words anyway. Why? Because not only does it disrespect me, I am disrespecting those who do believe by making a mockery of their religion.
rokhas1yummybumbum		#127	[-]
Posts: 14044 (05/24/2009 11:34 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	pinksparklies wrote: rokhas1yummybumbum wrote: Semirhage626 wrote: Dylishis wrote: For the people who don't believe, yes they are just empty words, but religion in this country is still affecting them because of the people who continue to try to legislate and make laws based on those religious beliefs i.e. dumbfuck Bush etc. That's why they care. Oh, absolutely but I think it's misguided attentions look to things like money and the Pledge of Allegiance to make an argument about basic human rights. I know that many Christians are very firm in their beliefs and they may try to force that on the whole in situations that they have no right to do so but taking God out of our documents and money isn't going to change those rabid Bible thumpers' stance on anything (politicians and otherwise). I think focusing on those areas that need fixing and working harder to force fair legislation on more important things is a better idea than erasing the word God from dollar bills and national oaths. If God is gone, are these people suddenly going to hop the fence and believe what those the non-believers do? Of course not. No, it's just a simple change and it won't make things better overnight. But on the other hand, it IS just a small thing, and so it should be something we can manage to change, because it is just words, and words are easier to change than attitudes. And there is no good reason to have government documents and currency that intentionally sets out to alienate a large group of people -- and that is exactly what the inclusion of Under God in the pledge set out to do when it was added in the 50's. Every American should be able to say the Pledge without being reminded that they're in a religious minority. Do you feel alienated? Do you feel guilty? I don't know why, if you were comfortable in your disbelief in God, you'd care at all. My dad is an atheist and he doesn't feel alienated. I don't feel alienated but I feel like it's disrespectful to our nation's citizens who don't believe in God. We have religious freedom sure, but it's like "You can believe in whatever you want...just know that Christians actually matter." I think it's just completely unneeded. "god" can be anything though. Just because a Christian put it in, doesn't mean that's how you and everyone else have to interpret it. shrugs Believing in something matters. To say there is NOTHING, that's a pretty cold statement to make.
Kwis77		#128	[-]
Posts: 17269 (05/24/2009 11:42 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	No.
Lo Timbalake		#129	[-]
Posts: 9866 (05/24/2009 11:43 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	How is that a cold statement? It's scientifically rational. Take some anthropology courses, people, you might learn something. That being said, I'm not an Athiest. I don't believe in religions. I don't believe in "god". I believe there is something going on out there, but I don't believe any man or woman on Earth has any business pretending they know the facts.
Dylishis		#130	[-]
Posts: 9552 (05/24/2009 11:59 PM) Most Outspoken '08 JJBer of the Year '09 Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	IMJinnie wrote: pinksparklies wrote: Semirhage626 wrote: Dylishis wrote: No, it's just a simple change and it won't make things better overnight. But on the other hand, it IS just a small thing, and so it should be something we can manage to change, because it is just words, and words are easier to change than attitudes. And there is no good reason to have government documents and currency that intentionally sets out to alienate a large group of people -- and that is exactly what the inclusion of Under God in the pledge set out to do when it was added in the 50's. Every American should be able to say the Pledge without being reminded that they're in a religious minority. How often do you say The Pledge though? . Quite often. I say it every time I attend a college sporting event, so at least 9-12 times per year. But how often I say the pledge isn't really the point. It's a Pledge to OUR nation. A nation that is supposed to respect private individual worship and freedom from religion. I should be able to pledge allegeience to my nation without using the phrase "Under God" (and for the record I do, I omit the words), but I can't believe anyone argues against removing it -- WHY? Why is it so important to you that it stay when you KNOW it alienates others & was intended to divide? Why would Christians allow their religion to be used like a manipulative tool, and fight for it to continued to be used in that way? THIS. THIS. THIS. OMG THIS! Just a question. Do you celebrate Christmas? How about Easter? That's a good question. I wonder do the people that feel this way also feel like they should protest to be able to work on days where religious holidays are observed and their jobs give them time off. Are some offended by Christmas presents? Or like...does anyone want to make the USPS bring them mail on Sunday? How far does this need for separation of church and state REALLY go? Again, I'm not necessarily for or against removing it, just curious!
Lo Timbalake		#131	[-]
Posts: 9871 (05/25/2009 12:05 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	For whatever reason, my quote thing doesn't want to work right, so I'm just going to say this is directed at you, Dylan (Dylishis). I'm not offended by Christmas presents, but I'm also not offended when I receive gifts from Jewish friends. I celebrate the holiday season because it is more about a sense of warmth between people, and as much as some people want to pretend the major focus is religion, it's not. Sorry folks, but I don't remember icicle lights being in the Bible. I do get kind of annoyed about the Sunday thing because it's a pain. For example, we can't serve alcohol on Sundays until 1:00pm. I can't go to the bank on Sundays. Blah Blah Blah. I have heard people say "but if there are people who want those days off for worship, why shouldn't they get them?" I totally understand that and respect those peoples' rights to their beliefs. I'm just wondering, where is my special day of worship? Where is my explanation for why I deserve a day off from work? I've found it doesn't work out so well to tell my managers, "oh yeah, I can't work those shifts because I want personal time for reflection." They don't care! The moment a coworker brings in religion, however, the game completely shifts. It's bizarre.
rokhas1yummybumbum		#132	[-]
Posts: 14045 (05/25/2009 12:07 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	Lideem wrote: rokhas1yummybumbum wrote: "god" can be anything though. Just because a Christian put it in, doesn't mean that's how you and everyone else have to interpret it. shrugs Believing in something matters. To say there is NOTHING, that's a pretty cold statement to make. To say there is SOMETHING, that's a pretty brave statement to make. It's quite comforting. "God" doesn't have to be a person. God can be a force, something making things happen. The Big Bang? I just read Angels and Demons.
MandsLB8		#133	[-]
Posts: 4529 (05/25/2009 12:09 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	I'm not even going to say I care about this topic beause even if they did take it out of the pledge, nobody could stop me from praising and trusting God aloud. Nobody will ever take away my freedom of speech just because you don't love the God I do. Besides the fact, I'd never even be so bold to tell anyone to stop praying and trusting in whatever it is they trust.
Lo Timbalake		#134	[-]
Posts: 9873 (05/25/2009 12:12 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	MandsLB8 wrote: I'm not even going to say I care about this topic beause even if they did take it out of the pledge, nobody could stop me from praising and trusting God aloud. Nobody will ever take away my freedom of speech just because you don't love the God I do. Besides the fact, I'd never even be so bold to tell anyone to stop praying and trusting in whatever it is they trust. I don't know how to say this without sounding offensive so... you sound like an idiot. I don't "love god"? That's because for me your god doesn't exist. You need to learn to consider that your beliefs are YOUR beliefs that fit your life. While it is very easy to think your beliefs are "right", it is also very ethnocentric and irrational. There's a big, bad world out there. You ought to try learning about all the people in it who believe THEIR god is the right one, and yours isn't. Further, no one is telling you to stop praying; we're saying to stop imposing your prayers upon US.
Dylishis		#135	[-]
Posts: 9555 (05/25/2009 12:18 AM) Most Outspoken '08 JJBer of the Year '09 Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	Lo Timbalake wrote: For whatever reason, my quote thing doesn't want to work right, so I'm just going to say this is directed at you, Dylan (Dylishis). I'm not offended by Christmas presents, but I'm also not offended when I receive gifts from Jewish friends. I celebrate the holiday season because it is more about a sense of warmth between people, and as much as some people want to pretend the major focus is religion, it's not. Sorry folks, but I don't remember icicle lights being in the Bible. I do get kind of annoyed about the Sunday thing because it's a pain. For example, we can't serve alcohol on Sundays until 1:00pm. I can't go to the bank on Sundays. Blah Blah Blah. I have heard people say "but if there are people who want those days off for worship, why shouldn't they get them?" I totally understand that and respect those peoples' rights to their beliefs. I'm just wondering, where is my special day of worship? Where is my explanation for why I deserve a day off from work? I've found it doesn't work out so well to tell my managers, "oh yeah, I can't work those shifts because I want personal time for reflection." They don't care! The moment a coworker brings in religion, however, the game completely shifts. It's bizarre. I find that part in bold to be a bit questionable. It is a warm and shmoopy season, but Christmas is a religious holiday...no matter much it's become about business and material things, or even spending time with family and friends. It's Jesus' birthday (or at least the day people choose to observe), there's no way around that. I just don't see how God can be an inconvenience in certain scenarios but at other times be beneficial. I think (my opinion) is that if this how people feel...they should go all the way with it. That's the part that I find to be weird w/ this viewpoint is because no matter what anyone chooses to point out as a source of offense (again, pledge...currency, etc.) on THIS subject I guarantee that there is something in the lives of most Americans lives that totally contradicts and negates the basic point of their feeling alienated in any way. But that's not to say that I disrespect your feelings...I do. I just find it interesting that many people seem to only be conditionally against this whole deal.
DoesThatSparkle		#136	[-]
Posts: 2191 (05/25/2009 12:20 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	MandsLB8 wrote: I'm not even going to say I care about this topic beause even if they did take it out of the pledge, nobody could stop me from praising and trusting God aloud. Nobody will ever take away my freedom of speech just because you don't love the God I do. Besides the fact, I'd never even be so bold to tell anyone to stop praying and trusting in whatever it is they trust. What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read the topic being discussed? What you wrote has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed.
MandsLB8		#137	[-]
Posts: 4530 (05/25/2009 12:21 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	Lo Timbalake wrote: MandsLB8 wrote: I'm not even going to say I care about this topic beause even if they did take it out of the pledge, nobody could stop me from praising and trusting God aloud. Nobody will ever take away my freedom of speech just because you don't love the God I do. Besides the fact, I'd never even be so bold to tell anyone to stop praying and trusting in whatever it is they trust. I don't know how to say this without sounding offensive so... you sound like an idiot. I don't "love god"? That's because for me your god doesn't exist. You need to learn to consider that your beliefs are YOUR beliefs that fit your life. While it is very easy to think your beliefs are "right", it is also very ethnocentric and irrational. There's a big, bad world out there. You ought to try learning about all the people in it who believe THEIR god is the right one, and yours isn't. I don't even know if this warrants a response- but... I wasn't making a peronal attack. I was merely saying that even if you or I didn't have the same beliefs, I would expect you to accept I have others, as I accept yours. If it brought you peace by blessing a game or saying thank you to our country some other way with whoever you believed in's name.. I would never tell you to stop. I personally think what you're saying is idiotic and one sided. Just because you don't believe in the same things I do, why should I stop saying them in hopes of not offending you? What if it offends me not to say it?
Lo Timbalake		#138	[-]
Posts: 9874 (05/25/2009 12:22 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	Dylishis wrote: Lo Timbalake wrote: For whatever reason, my quote thing doesn't want to work right, so I'm just going to say this is directed at you, Dylan (Dylishis). I'm not offended by Christmas presents, but I'm also not offended when I receive gifts from Jewish friends. I celebrate the holiday season because it is more about a sense of warmth between people, and as much as some people want to pretend the major focus is religion, it's not. Sorry folks, but I don't remember icicle lights being in the Bible. I do get kind of annoyed about the Sunday thing because it's a pain. For example, we can't serve alcohol on Sundays until 1:00pm. I can't go to the bank on Sundays. Blah Blah Blah. I have heard people say "but if there are people who want those days off for worship, why shouldn't they get them?" I totally understand that and respect those peoples' rights to their beliefs. I'm just wondering, where is my special day of worship? Where is my explanation for why I deserve a day off from work? I've found it doesn't work out so well to tell my managers, "oh yeah, I can't work those shifts because I want personal time for reflection." They don't care! The moment a coworker brings in religion, however, the game completely shifts. It's bizarre. I find that part in bold to be a bit questionable. It is a warm and shmoopy season, but Christmas is a religious holiday...no matter much it's become about business and material things, or even spending time with family and friends. It's Jesus' birthday (or at least the day people choose to observe), there's no way around that. I just don't see how God can be an inconvenience in certain scenarios but at other times be beneficial. I think (my opinion) is that if this how people feel...they should go all the way with it. That's the part that I find to be weird w/ this viewpoint is because no matter what anyone chooses to point out as a source of offense (again, pledge...currency, etc.) on THIS subject I guarantee that there is something in the lives of most Americans lives that totally contradicts and negates the basic point of their feeling alienated in any way. But that's not to say that I disrespect your feelings...I do. I just find it interesting that many people seem to only be conditionally against this whole deal. I understand why you feel that way, but I don't say "Merry Christmas" or whatever. I do wish people happy holidays, because why shouldn't I? I want them to enjoy themselves, and we all have the new year. While I do get what you mean about contradictions, that's also found on the other end of the argument. Not very "Christian" to do a lot of things people do, but they still do them. That is just as much a conditional thing; case in point, people are up in arms about gay marriage, but there are other things in the Bible that get swept under the rug and don't seem to matter because they are socially acceptable. I think the way I engage in the holidays is more "American" if anything... I dabble in different celebrations and am simply enjoying the designated time frame of the year in which I get to see family and friends.
MandsLB8		#139	[-]
Posts: 4531 (05/25/2009 12:23 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	DoesThatSparkle wrote: MandsLB8 wrote: I'm not even going to say I care about this topic beause even if they did take it out of the pledge, nobody could stop me from praising and trusting God aloud. Nobody will ever take away my freedom of speech just because you don't love the God I do. Besides the fact, I'd never even be so bold to tell anyone to stop praying and trusting in whatever it is they trust. What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read the topic being discussed? What you wrote has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed. You asked if we thought "God" should be taken out and I said it doesn't matter to me, because even if it did- I would still say it.
Lo Timbalake		#140	[-]
Posts: 9875 (05/25/2009 12:24 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Friend Block Invite Ignore	MandsLB8 wrote: Lo Timbalake wrote: MandsLB8 wrote: I'm not even going to say I care about this topic beause even if they did take it out of the pledge, nobody could stop me from praising and trusting God aloud. Nobody will ever take away my freedom of speech just because you don't love the God I do. Besides the fact, I'd never even be so bold to tell anyone to stop praying and trusting in whatever it is they trust. I don't know how to say this without sounding offensive so... you sound like an idiot. I don't "love god"? That's because for me your god doesn't exist. You need to learn to consider that your beliefs are YOUR beliefs that fit your life. While it is very easy to think your beliefs are "right", it is also very ethnocentric and irrational. There's a big, bad world out there. You ought to try learning about all the people in it who believe THEIR god is the right one, and yours isn't. I don't even know if this warrants a response- but... I wasn't making a peronal attack. I was merely saying that even if you or I didn't have the same beliefs, I would expect you to accept I have others, as I accept yours. If it brought you peace by blessing a game or saying thank you to our country some other way with whoever you believed in's name.. I would never tell you to stop. I personally think what you're saying is idiotic and one sided. Just because you don't believe in the same things I do, why should I stop saying them in hopes of not offending you? What if it offends me not to say it? I don't care if you have your beliefs and celebrate them, but they have no business in national symbols and pledges. Sorry, they just don't. Saying it would offend you to NOT say those things is like saying it would also offend you if a non-religious person didn't bless you when you sneeze. Why should they if they don't believe? If anything, it should offend you if I did say those things, because I don't mean them and am just weakening their meaning.

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Should "god" be taken out of our nations sayings?

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